Ever wondered what motivates women to step outside their marriages?
Susan Shapiro Barash, a seasoned author and gender studies educator known for her thought-provoking research on the taboo topic of female infidelity, sheds light on how these extramarital escapades often serve as a hidden path to empowerment, self-esteem, and unexpected love.
Barash, who authored the book, A Passion for More: Affairs That Make or Break Us discussed the nuances of societal judgments surrounding women who dare to cross the line.
Despite societal progress, patriarchy still looms large, and Barash’s explorations of affairs as potential acts of self-care have not been without backlash.
In this interview, Barash also shared the experience of transforming her book into a podcast, the use of a pseudonym for her fiction work, and her new novel that explores a woman's relationship with her lover.
It is an episode not to be missed if you're intrigued by the complexities of women's affairs and societal gender roles.
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➡️ If you enjoyed this episode, you might want to check out my newsletter, The Writing Goldmine, for more tips and info on the storytelling craft and monetizing your writing skills.
➡️ Is there a book in you and you don't know how to get started, or maybe you need some guidance on how to navigate the publishing industry? I can help you. Take a look.
➡️ I have distilled my over two decades of writing and publishing experience into an online academy where I provide courses and coaching. Learn with me here.
🎁 GIFT: Also, as a gift from me for listening to my podcast, I'm giving you my award-winning short story Ustaz Ali for FREE. Get it here.
📕 If the sound of a speculative murder mystery set between Jordan and the US strikes your fancy, then you might want to check out my novel They Called Me Wyatt.
Ever wondered what motivates women to step outside their marriages?
Susan Shapiro Barash, a seasoned author and gender studies educator known for her thought-provoking research on the taboo topic of female infidelity, sheds light on how these extramarital escapades often serve as a hidden path to empowerment, self-esteem, and unexpected love.
Barash, who authored the book, A Passion for More: Affairs That Make or Break Us discussed the nuances of societal judgments surrounding women who dare to cross the line.
Despite societal progress, patriarchy still looms large, and Barash’s explorations of affairs as potential acts of self-care have not been without backlash.
In this interview, Barash also shared the experience of transforming her book into a podcast, the use of a pseudonym for her fiction work, and her new novel that explores a woman's relationship with her lover.
It is an episode not to be missed if you're intrigued by the complexities of women's affairs and societal gender roles.
****************************************************************************
➡️ If you enjoyed this episode, you might want to check out my newsletter, The Writing Goldmine, for more tips and info on the storytelling craft and monetizing your writing skills.
➡️ Is there a book in you and you don't know how to get started, or maybe you need some guidance on how to navigate the publishing industry? I can help you. Take a look.
➡️ I have distilled my over two decades of writing and publishing experience into an online academy where I provide courses and coaching. Learn with me here.
🎁 GIFT: Also, as a gift from me for listening to my podcast, I'm giving you my award-winning short story Ustaz Ali for FREE. Get it here.
📕 If the sound of a speculative murder mystery set between Jordan and the US strikes your fancy, then you might want to check out my novel They Called Me Wyatt.
This is a very sexist society and if we ever question that, all we need to say is why isn't there equal pay for equal work in a capitalistic culture? And once we say there isn't because, why? You tell me. I've been interviewed many times about why there's no equal pay for equal work. It's just blatant discrimination against women.
Speaker 2:Hi, friends, this is Read and Write with Natasha podcast. My name is Natasha Tynes and I'm an author and a journalist. In this channel I talk about the writing life, review books and interview authors. Hope you enjoy the journey. Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Read and Write with Natasha. Today I have with me Susan Shapiro Barash, who has written over a dozen nonfiction books, including Tripping the Prom Queen, toxic Friends and You're Grounded Forever. In addition to this TV1 passion for more and for more than 20 years, she has taught gender studies at Marymount Manhattan College and has guest taught creative nonfiction at the Writing Institute at Sarah Lawrence College. Wow, susan, hi, thank you for joining us today. Thank you for having me, of course. I'm so excited to meet you and talk about this book, which I read most of it. I just went through the stories, and so this book, for anyone who's listening or watching it, is called A Passion for More Affairs that Make or Break, so it is a book about women having a fear. So, susan, why did you write this book?
Speaker 1:Well, this is actually Natasha's 30 years study of women on female infidelity. I began it in the early 90s and I was intrigued by how convention-bound women in our culture are having affairs, and I kept the study going, interviewing a diverse group of women in terms of age and race and ethnicity, level of education, level of social strata and where they live in the country from big towns and cities, suburbs, rural areas to see how they felt about marriages and as the research progressed about committed, longstanding monogamous relationships and the lover. And what was so striking is that so many women are engaging in some sort of extramarital or extra committed relationship affair.
Speaker 2:Okay, so do you think women having an affair is a taboo compared to men having an affair? And if that's the case, would that ever change? You mean the judgments that are being made in our culture? Correct, like women would be judged harshly, more harshly if they have an affair than when men have an affair, because women are seen as this motherly kind of loving, good girls, good girls. Exactly that. Do not think much about sexual pressure. They're too occupied with raising the kids and running the household to worry about that part of their life.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think that the judgments against women are harsh, as you said, and ongoing in a very patriarchal culture, and what's so fascinating about female infidelity is that it's really a choice for women, just as it's been for men, and that women do it very carefully. They are very good at keeping the secret, they don't get caught unless they would like to use it as a negotiating tool to fix the marriage or committed relationship, and they're very good at balancing their lives. So, in fact, based on my study, women have affairs for four different reasons. They do it for empowering affairs empowerment. They do it for self-esteem, sort of like turning 40 or 50 or 60 and looking in the mirror and saying how many good years do I have left and is this all there is? They do it for sex, which is reflective of what we assume about men in our culture. And they do it because they unexpectedly fall in love with someone else, which is the most poignant type of affair in my study.
Speaker 2:Do you think these are the same reasons men have an affair, or is for women that's different?
Speaker 1:Well, first I should say that I don't interview men, so the only way that I for any of my nonfiction, so the only way that I can report men is, as the women who might do interview report men to me. So, based on assumptions and information, anecdotal information, from celebrity culture to historical references to everyday lives, oh, and definitely the screen and literature, we're looking at men who do it for whatever reason they want. As Bill Clinton said about Monica Lewinsky, he did it because he could, I paraphrase, but something like that was the message. However, women do it for the four reasons that I cited and that is based on my speaking to, in the aggregate for this particular book, thousands of.
Speaker 2:Women. Okay. So when an F, if men find out about their wives or their partners affairs, do they tend to quote unquote, forgive them, the same way many women do that Like you know the stand by your man song, you know that's Helen Clinton quoted. So what is the men's reaction usually?
Speaker 1:Well, what I'm hearing from the women interviewees is that men are different today and that you know there's no longer, and let's remember that men wrote these novels. You know, madame Wolverie, for fair have different boys and men. Tolstoy had Anna Karenina jump in front of a train. You know no one's doing that for sure. So women have more power, more agency, more authority, and so they're acting differently about the affairs than ever before.
Speaker 1:And they feel very entitled to the affairs and 90% of my interviewees told me that they were really guilt free but they did not feel guilty about the affairs.
Speaker 2:The women did not feel guilty. They don't feel guilty. Why is that? Like I would assume, women would carry a bigger guilt, but that man right.
Speaker 1:Well, the reason that I believe the women feel little guilt or no guilt 90% of my interviewees it's because, by the time that they've embarked on the affair, they have endured a great deal in the primary relationship and they're very disappointed and they're not getting what they want. So, like, if your husband is an intellectual, then maybe your lover is a bodybuilder, or vice versa. Or if you, you know, no one says to my husband and my lover remind me of each other. I don't hear that, because they're looking for a very different experience.
Speaker 2:And how do women have affairs from, like, where do they meet these men? I mean, do they actually seek them out, like using apps and technology, or they just happen to find them, like meet them around?
Speaker 1:Well, some women actively seek them out, but a lot of it is, as we might say, organic, meaning women are out and about. It could be the workplace. It could be your child's soccer game, where you meet a father who might or might not be married himself. It could be a college reunion, a high school reunion. Going back home for a weekend to your hometown after many years, just with the internet saying, wow, I wonder what happened to good old Joe, researching him and then sort of feeling that pain.
Speaker 1:But a lot of it is really about what the women want and how they go after it. And to that end, when this book came out again just recently and with updated, revised information and new interviews, I Hard Podcast option did for a podcast that came out from February to April called she Wants More, based on a passion for more, and in that, because of your question, I just thought of this in that podcast, one of the women and these were the real women, speaking, of course, changing identifying characteristics the name is Sarah. It's not really Sarah in the podcast or in my book, but what was interesting, natasha, is that one of the women spoke about being on Ashley Madison's website, where it really is about having an affair overtly, deliberately when you are already in a committed relationship or a marriage. So one of those women talked about that and that she ended up falling in love with the lover. So that was an interesting story.
Speaker 2:Another way to meet the man Interesting. So in one of, I think, your findings in the book, you said that some affairs actually improve the marriage. Can you elaborate on that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the way that the affair improves the marriage or monogamous relationship is that the women are getting from the lover what they don't get from their husband or longstanding partner. So if there's very little sex in the primary relationship, there's a lot of sex with the lover. If there's really no excitement, there's no. Some of the women say going out to wonderful restaurants and taking long walks, whatever is missing. A lot of women talk about how much they can communicate and be understood by the lover in a way that they're not by their husband or partner.
Speaker 2:Is there a common thread on what women seek in a lover or in affairs? What would like you know if you ask the question what do women want? What are they seeking? What are they mostly seeking that they don't have in a committed relation?
Speaker 1:Many of the women say that they feel important to the lover and they feel invisible or almost invisible in the marriage or primary relationship. And so they're saying that they feel so appreciated and admired and understood and as if they're really counting, as if they are really meaningful to this man and when they're little children. Because the other thing I want to say is that women of all ages have a marriage from their 20s to their 80s, which is just fascinating to me at these different stages of their lives and of the relationship that they've been, you know, invested in. So the women are saying that they feel like they count.
Speaker 2:I see, and so your book. You know it's fascinating, but I'm sure some people find it a bit controversial. So I want to ask you about. First, how did you publish it? Did you have to find an agent? What was your publishing?
Speaker 1:job. Well, this book has come. This is the third edition. It came out in 1993. And then it came out in 2001. And then it came out this, just you know this year. So so this book and my ongoing research has really been illuminating, and I've been with three different publishers, for you know each issue as a different publisher.
Speaker 2:Why is that?
Speaker 1:So the second and the third time publishers came to me and you know this is I've published 17 books. This is my newest book, which I hope I can mention later. Sure, yeah, that just came out, like you know, three weeks. So the point is is that for my fiction and nonfiction, over the years, I have been with different publishers and each experience has been quite terrific.
Speaker 1:And I've always had an agent and representation. Okay, yes, but the point that you made a minute ago is that's really, I think, significant is that this is still a controversial topic.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that it's still it's. It reminds us of how patriarchal a culture we live in and how much bias against women really still exists, and I kept thinking it would get better with time. The women's voices get stronger. When I did my first edition, the women were from, say, late 20s to early or mid 50s and with this last study, especially during COVID, including affairs of the mind, you know, not just physical affairs and cyber space affairs. I was hearing from women in their early 80s. I was hearing from young women who were engaged or about to move in with a partner, who were having an affair. It was really, really intriguing to me.
Speaker 2:So, and the reason I ask about the book what so? What was the reaction that you got from readers? And I'm sure that there were positive and negative. So did you have negative reaction to the book?
Speaker 1:Oh, I think there's always been pushback on female infidelity. Because you had mentioned that I've written 13 nonfiction books and I did three studies on the role of the wife. Okay, I've written three books on wifeing and marriage in America and affairs, and that's separate from a passion for more, and in each of these books I've looked at the life of the wife and heard more about affairs. And so, again, you know, the women feel as if it's a form of agency and a way to understand themselves. It's almost like self-care, and our culture is still very puritanical and, frankly, very sexist. So it will always be, I think, or at least for the near future as well, an incendiary topic.
Speaker 2:What kind of negative feedback did you get? Did you get any negative reviews from readers saying you know?
Speaker 1:No more, just anecdotally, or when I was on a book tour and people would say why is this happening and who are these women? And it's happening because women hold the bar very high in these marriages and committed relationships and aren't really happy. As I said earlier, I don't believe anyone walks down the aisle saying, gee, I wonder when I'll have my first affair. It's more that it's the experience and life of the actual marriage or committed relationship that yields a woman who is open to an affair.
Speaker 1:We also live a very long time, and longevity really adds to this. You know curiosity and longing for someone else.
Speaker 2:Do you think women with children, like mothers, are judged more than women without children? Do I think it happens? More with women who have children? Do you think they are judged more than women without children? Do you think the mother figures?
Speaker 1:I don't know about more, but I would say definitely, judgments against and of women are pervasive, absolutely pervasive.
Speaker 2:As I said earlier.
Speaker 1:This is a very sexist society and if we ever question that, all we need to say is why isn't there equal pay for equal work in a capitalistic culture? And once we say there isn't because, why? You tell me? I've been interviewed many times about why there's no equal pay for equal work. It's just blatant discrimination against women, and it hasn't it's gotten better. It is not equal, and if we take that as the premise, then of course women are judged more harshly. Of course women are held to a different standard.
Speaker 1:And then that circles back to what we said a few minutes ago about being the good girl and being a pleaser, and being a mother and being a wife, and all of this connotes purity and commitment. And men were always allowed to wink, wink, to travel, have something on the side, and women now trade in the same currency. Women travel for business, they have a business credit card, they have cell phones. I can't tell you how many women in this study, when they started an affair, got a different kind of phone just to get in touch with the lover. You could be lying next to your husband on the couch watching Netflix and texting. You're a lover. Social media technology makes it easier, but when I started this study and it wasn't a big part of the picture the women were every bit as compelled.
Speaker 2:You said something that was fascinating that women are more careful than men when it comes to hiding their affairs.
Speaker 1:I had conducted a study in 2008. It came out called Little White Lies, deep Dark Secrets, the Truth About why Women Lie and, of course, again, affairs were part of the big bag of secrets and lies for women, and women are very facile at juggling, as I said earlier, at keeping everything going in their lives.
Speaker 1:When you live and die in a patriarchy. And you're female, you have honed your skills, so you're pretty multifaceted and you're pretty capable of a lot of things going on at once. So women who have high-powered jobs, women who have three little children, women who have a mother-in-law to take care of and a mother to take care of and little children and a husband somehow all these stories can still be added to within affairs. It's really for the women, it is a very specific, conscious choice.
Speaker 2:Well, so if someone comes to you and tells you you know, this is against religion, all religion, and by writing this book you might be encouraging women to have affairs, what would you say?
Speaker 1:to them. I neither condemn nor condone. This is a journalistic endeavor. I am here to report a slice of life for more women than we think.
Speaker 2:Okay, and you say that to anyone who comes forward with that allegation.
Speaker 1:Yes. For anyone who asks me if I'm endorsing this, I'm noting it. It's been a study of mine for all these years. I started this research because many years ago I was taking the commuter train into New York sitting and I was sitting beside four women, you know, facing in the car. They're facing each other and they were. One of them was about to get married in two weeks and she was confessing that she was still seeing her old boyfriend and I thought, wow, I was married, a very young wife with young kids, and I thought, wow, that's worth eavesdropping and to listen to more. And then, weirdly, when I got to the birthday lunch, friends were talking about their friends and affairs and I thought is this in the ether?
Speaker 1:is this a trend, a phenomenon? Is it a one-off? What is it? And so, because I am a journalist, I wanted to know more. It was so long ago that I put ads and newspapers across the country and put a hotline into my home office and just heard from women who kept saying well, thank God, you're writing this book. I don't feel so alone now and you know, by the time I did my latest research, I could post on the internet to find interviewees, but for every woman whom I spoke with, I always asked her if she had a friend or knew someone. I ended up interviewing military wives. I just really, as I told you earlier, a very disparate, diverse group of women, and the longing for the lover is what's so powerful.
Speaker 2:Wow. So I wanna talk about literature, and you mentioned Anna Karenina and the other one is Anna Karenina. Yeah, what about more contemporary literature? I know there is one, I think Little Children, if you know that.
Speaker 1:Oh, like Tom Carota.
Speaker 2:Yes, he wrote that I've never seen a film as well what other that portrays it in a manner because I read that book a few years ago and for me it was still unique because it was from the woman's perspective and how, the ending and all of that. So I was wondering where is literature, fiction, when it comes to talking about women's affairs? Where are we now from the days of Anna Karenina?
Speaker 1:Not a stire, but still with great risk. I'm thinking of fiction. Well, first of all I'm thinking, although again, it's an old book, it's really classic literature, but it was written by a woman and everyone else that you cited are male writers interpreting this, and that would be the Awakening by Kate Chopin. Ok, but even in that it's a very sad end. And I myself and now I can mention my new novel, which is my new pen name, maribel Shadow, by Susanne Marren, my favorite name.
Speaker 1:So this has an affair in it and it was really for me great to write about this character and the affair. And she's a young woman, she has a little boy, her name is Raleigh, and what the lover meant to her and how drawn she was to him. And of course the risk reward of these affairs is written about in more contemporary books. But there is always something in our culture around an affair that makes us gas. I don't know if you remember the film that came out, I would say, 10 or 15 years ago with Diane Lane and Richard Geer, called Unfaithful, where she's married to Richard Geer. So of course we say to ourselves.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, I remember.
Speaker 1:If you're married to Richard Geer, you really need to have an affair with him.
Speaker 2:And it also has a sad ending. No, Was it Tragic? Yeah, I remember.
Speaker 1:I remember the affair and in my own novel. The affair really in this new novel spins and spins this woman. So I'm not here to say there aren't repercussions. I'm here to say that many women today, in particular based on my research these last few years, are really looking at it as a very personal journey. I see it's not about, oh, the husband versus the lover. It's about what this woman's needs are and what resonates with the lover that can't be found in the marriage or longstanding relationship.
Speaker 2:There was a recent HBO documentary what was it called? Love and Lies or something. It's a true story about a woman in Texas who has an affair with her neighbor.
Speaker 1:What is it called? I'm going to try to see it. It's called Love and Lies.
Speaker 2:HBF, hbo. Let me see HBO Love and Death. Oh, love and Death. It's based on a true story and the woman is still alive that they based the story on, and it starts with her having an affair and the repercussions of what happened.
Speaker 1:And it really is. I'm not here to say it's for everyone. I'm here to say that it is happening more and more than we think, and I do include, as I mentioned, an affair of the mind and workplace affairs and finding that old flame, all sorts of reasons that trigger women. But we're really looking at female longing and what is it about women?
Speaker 1:And we live a long time and we reinvent ourselves along the way and women are very disappointed by relationships and how do we know ourselves when we make a commitment and who is the lover that you would risk so much to have that experience? So these are the realities of affairs.
Speaker 2:Do you think men are to blame for women having affairs? Do I think that men are to blame for men having affairs?
Speaker 1:I don't know if to blame, but based on all of my research on how women really feel, versus the faces, we wear the hats, we wear the pleasers we are.
Speaker 1:I would think that disappointment is a big part of why women do what they do, and that would include affairs. They're disappointed in the marriage. That's why when I said the most poignant part of my study is the love affairs, because I interviewed women who say life is just fine, my husband, it's good enough, we have these kids together. Some women say, we have these grandchildren together, and then that lover walks across the room somewhere somehow and it changes everything. It's what we would call a thunderbolt, and that's something to consider in the life of a woman that nothing is contained. Just because we put one foot in front of the other doesn't mean that we'll get the result that we expect. Life is full of surprises, for women.
Speaker 2:I think is it more of a. I know you said you interviewed people in different ages, but do you think mostly it can be defined as a midlife crisis?
Speaker 1:I thought that a lot of women turning 40 in my initial phase of research years ago were looking in the mirror and saying how many good years do I have left? And all I do is take care of these children? And the second shift. I have the proverbial second shift in our culture where women are working but they come home and they still do the lunchboxes and the homework and get the kids bathed if they're young and ready for school the next day. Is this all there is? And my husband watching the football game and the clicker, the remote control? And is that all there is? And how long will I look good?
Speaker 1:I think that happened more at the age of 40 years ago, but as longevity has increased for women and women are more powerful in their own realms, within their friendships, their communities, and I've interviewed women who start new positions at the age of 60. I've interviewed women who move away from their children and grandchildren to have a new life. So we're looking at women who just wake up and say this is what I need after all these years of sacrifice. Or some say they were martyrs and I'm not sure how much that plays into the affair, but certainly the idea that they want more as the podcast is called she wants more.
Speaker 2:Wow, can you tell me a bit about the podcast? So they approached you. How did that happen?
Speaker 1:So I was approached by producers OK, and they optioned my book and it was taken to I Heart podcast Okay, and they chose a really impressive host who had had a few podcasts going at I Heart. One was called Committed and she's an author as well and we really all worked so well together. Her name is Joe Piazza and she was the host and I would love for you to listen to it yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna listen to it today. I just found a way that she interviewed to be so impressive and I loved. I loved the women and I loved Joe as the host. She was fantastic.
Speaker 2:Wow. And what was the reaction to the podcast?
Speaker 1:The podcast did well, it did really well and I heard from people and they heard from people and it was written up and Joe was interviewed, I was interviewed, interviewed. When the book came out I was on Good Day, new York, and written up in the New York Post and lots of like fan mail you know emails and to the website and, yeah, like a real reaction and always the interest in how women are positioned in society.
Speaker 2:And can we listen to it in any on any platform, or only I Heart radio on any platform. Okay, so is there any plans to turn it into a documentary?
Speaker 1:I would love for it to be a documentary. I would love for it to even be traumatized. I'm, you know, always interested in in this aspect of a woman's life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think as a follow up to the HBO, you know kind of show that's based on a real life, maybe the love and death, love and death I mean there's. You know, I would try to capitalize on the success of that show by pitching your book as a as a show. That's just an idea. So what is your day to day like? Do you write every day? Do you teach? How is how is life for Susan Shapiro, and why did you choose a pen name when you write fiction?
Speaker 1:So since the since COVID, I haven't taught at Mary. Now and it's like after 23 years and it's been amazing to be a full time writer and I'm working on a nonfiction proposal and a new novel and this book, susanna Marin, is my for my fiction. This is my fourth novel. I chose to have a pen name. Really, my publisher, st Martin's, at the time of my first novel called Between the Tides. They came out in 2015.
Speaker 1:They asked me if I wanted a pen name to differentiate my fiction from my nonfiction and I said, totally, because when I was in my second year of college many years ago, I and my parents came to visit me. I said to my mother listen, I have to have a pen name. I, you know, I'm going to be writing these books and, like, I just can't be called Susan Shapiro, susan Ronish. And she said, no, you can't do that. Why not? Because she thought long and hard about my name, which sounded really weird, because she didn't come up with such a great name for that thinking.
Speaker 1:And I said, but I have the name. I want to take the A from Ronan, make it Susanna, and I want to use the family name as the last name. And because I was a good girl and a pleaser. When she said no, I said OK, fine. And then, all those years later, st Martin's asked my agent if I wanted a pen name and I said I have the pen name, here it is. So they added the H to Susanna and they spelled Marin this way, and they just also, I think, for fiction it's important, I think, to have a sort of melodic name and let's face it, susanna Marin is prettier than Susan Shapiro.
Speaker 2:But don't you think that you already built a brand with Susan Shapiro and you need that brand to also sell fiction books?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was a little tough. I remember getting to a library where I was asked to speak when between the tides came out and when I got there the librarian said Susan, and I said yes, and she said, oh, I thought you were someone named Susanna Marin. She said if I had known it was you, I would have filled this room right away, you know. So it was like starting over, yeah, but it's worked out and I'm happy to have it and there are a lot of writers who have paintings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true, and I mean beyond Mark Twain and Samuel Plum, jake Rowling Right. She goes by Robert Gullfrey.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I know Joyce Carol Oates has. I can't remember. I thought it was like Rose Mary Kelly, but don't quote me. Something like we want to put a meaning.
Speaker 2:So you spend all your day writing and reading pretty much.
Speaker 1:Well, I do have other commitments and family commitments, but I do try to write every day and I read every day.
Speaker 2:How many hours? Just curious.
Speaker 1:Hours Like I'm doing an event soon, but when I get back I'll write all afternoon into evening. Wow. And I have another podcast for Maribel Shadow. So you know I'm also now on a book tour, you know, for Maribel Shadow and I toured for the reissue of the Passion for More over the winter, so it's been a really busy time to be out there as well.
Speaker 2:Who's the publisher of the new book? This is both a Maribel shadow.
Speaker 1:Yeah for both. For it it's been great. I really like my love the jacket.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you Appreciate it. Wow, fascinating. I mean you know you're living the dream. I mean I'm that's what I'm doing now reading and writing Every day and podcasting, but you know, not to your level, but you know I want to be you, I know so what's in the future for both Susanna and Susan.
Speaker 1:I'm working on a new novel and I'm working on a new nonfiction project, so it's really busy interviewing women always, always Curious about how women really feel.
Speaker 2:Is there gonna be another edition for passion for more?
Speaker 1:No, but of course we'll have all my books sort of dovetail. You know I wrote a book on sisters years ago, an ongoing study called sisters devoted or divided, and Actually this is the story of three adult sisters and their mother. Within the first few pages Maribel's handsome young husband and dies unexpectedly and it's all about who did what and what the lives are and where, once Daniel's gone. And I'm very interested in the role of wife, obviously in our society. So I'm really looking at how Maribel and her sisters are as wives and sisters. So you know each of my studies. I did a book on mother's mom, daughter's law. I wrote a book on second wives. I wrote a book about female rivalry called tripping the prom queen. So I'm looking at all these aspects of the female journey.
Speaker 2:So which of these books Sold the most? Oh, that's a good question.
Speaker 1:Passion for Morris done really well. People done pretty well. I know. Trimming the prom queen did really well. Book called toxic friends, about female friendships, did really well. A book called your grounded forever. But first let's go shopping about mothers and daughters, the book on sisters that I mentioned. And so I take my nonfiction and I really Put the research into the characters and plots of my fiction, wow. So you know, these characters are pretty multi-dimensional and also, I feel, reflective of how women navigate.
Speaker 2:Last question is is what are you reading these days?
Speaker 1:What am I reading? I just bought a book. Well, first of all, I just finished the golden dubs by Mark Sawhal Kelly and I read Hello Beautiful.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:They have Palatino, yeah, and Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. I just read all those. In the last month I read about a week Love to, and then I always Love to read and reread the classics. So I just reread the custom of the country in May by Edith Wharton.
Speaker 2:So that's where I'm at, wow. So do you have any tips or advice for anyone who wants to be a full-time writer, like you?
Speaker 1:For a long time I had a day job too. I would say keep your day job Right. When you can Make no excuses, don't say I'm tired from work, I'm tired from this, I'm tired. My kids wore me out, my friends wear me out, my husband wears me out. No, no, no, no. You write or you won't be happy. So if you're a true writer, you get up at 5 30 in the morning, or you Eat a faster dinner, or you and you make the time, and that way you have your pages. I recommend writing because for writers, if you don't write, it's like denying yourself something so essential.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, wonderful, any, any parting words before we conclude this fascinating discussion.
Speaker 1:I love to hear from fans so definitely, you know, get in touch through the website and thank you so much for having me on of course, and your books are available on Amazon.
Speaker 2:The bookstore and your website is Susan.
Speaker 1:Shapiro, either Susan Shapiro, barish calm or Suzanne American calm.
Speaker 2:It'll bring you to the same person, thank you very much, and for anyone who's listening or watching, thank you for joining us today and until we meet again.